The American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property held its annual National Conference on October 25-27, 2024. One highlight was a talk by long-time TFP member Nelson Fragelli. The following article is the second part of his talk, “Fighting For Our Catholic Culture: How Dr. Plinio Used the Art of Conversation.” In the earlier article, Mr. Fragelli discussed the ideal purpose of conversation. Here, he delves into the “rules” behind creating pleasant and blessed conversations.
We all know how to talk, just as we all know how to breathe: you don’t have to learn how to breathe. However, just as there are breathing exercises to improve the body’s intake of oxygen and blood circulation, there are notions that can help us converse better.
Our Lord in Our Conversations
As TFP supporters, friends, and Roman Catholics, we see that conversations bring us face-to-face with Our Lord Jesus Christ. He said, “I tell you, if two or three come together in my name, I will be in their midst.” This is the divine promise for all those who use conversation as an instrument of apostolate.
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“In my name” means for my sake. Thus, we do not only need to talk about religious themes. When we discuss the elections, the current wars or our activities to spread the Faith, we can do this in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
“I will be in the midst of you” means that Our Lord Jesus Christ will guide our conversations and arouse our hearts’ desires and affections. Saint Jerome says that Our Lord will be in the midst of the conversation as the Divine Holy Spirit is in the midst of the Father and the Son. He will hear all our desires because of the close union between Our Lord and those who gather together to talk in His name.
The Nature of Conversation
Everyone knows what a conversation is. We all talk because we live in society. We know that conversations are never repeated, not only because different people might be involved but also because individuals have different psychological dispositions from one day to the next. They can be calm one day and excited the next; they can be happy and optimistic on Sunday and gloomy on Tuesday. We have to adapt ourselves to all these factors when keeping conversations alive.
These psychological factors only involve our natural dispositions when conversing. We also need to consider the possible subjects and even plan the conversation when possible. Some people like to comment on current social issues, others on the arts, painting, music or history. Religion offers us a vast field for consideration.
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Conversation is as much a part of our lives as the air we breathe. We have conversations at all times, even when alone. Our Lord Jesus Christ wanted to be alone in the Garden of Olives, talking only to God the Father and the angels when He set the seal of His blood on the last page of His earthly life.
The Origin of Conversation
Conversations have always existed. But the art of conversation was born in medieval abbeys. The monks felt the need to make their personal contacts more perfect in order to expand their apostolate with those around them. They needed to comment on the Holy Scriptures, the conversions of the pagans, the formation of civil society and its sanctification. Catholicism was expanding. The monks wondered how to make the principles of the Scriptures interesting to uncultured peoples.
Charlemagne, who had a prophetic mission, sent the monks of his vast empire to study grammar in order to preach the Gospel. He felt it was necessary to make the comments on the Gospel more interesting to pagans. The heads of the newly converted clans—the future nobility—followed the monks’ example, and the use of language became more understandable and attractive.
The monks took Charlemagne’s advice seriously. Under the clergy’s guidance, prominent people began to select better vocabulary, improve their expression of ideas, enrich their courtesy and raise their social standards.
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These talks aimed to civilize the pagan peoples by softening their rustic habits, which gradually improved. At the height of the Church’s influence, conversation was identified with the spirit of charity. Indeed, making conversations interesting became a duty of charity.
The Sacrifices that Create Conversation
This duty called for sacrifices. What sacrifices? Every apostolate demands a sacrifice.
One sacrifice is making a mental effort. Our conversations can be planned when we prepare a particular subject in advance. However, preparing is seldom possible unless we go to a particular circle of friends we know well and perceive what subjects they like.
More often than not, conversations are unexpected. This is happening here at this National Conference. We meet people during the breaks and meals without knowing precisely what we are going to talk about. It is likely to be a counter-revolutionary subject, but we don’t know the details. The joy that we feel when we get together comes from good conversations.
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One sacrifice we must make when conversing is avoiding speaking excessively about health, diseases or medical treatments. We must not dwell on such subjects since they can kill the conversation.
If we concentrate only on being sound in body, we tend to forget the nourishing of the soul, which is the chief purpose of conversation.
The Varieties of Conversation
Conversations can be short or long. When short, they may strike the mind like lightning on a rainy night—the flash of light is so immense that we can see many objects. However, it is also so quick that we cannot absorb what we see.
Conversations can be long and satisfying, but they can also be boring or even devoid of content. At the end of such a conversation, we realize that we haven’t really understood what was said. These bland conversations can happen even to saints. However, as long as the participants engage with effort and prayer, they can be beneficial.
A Tale of Two Saints
To illustrate how even saints might experience difficulty in conversation, let us imagine two very different scenes.
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The first scene involves Saint Francis Borja, whom Saint Ignatius of Loyola appointed to be the superior of the Jesuits in Spain. He is with the great Saint Teresa of Avila, who lived and was very active in Spain in those days. They met several times and had conversations.
Let’s imagine a Spanish convent where they might have met. The building has high windows because the windows must be high in the convents of contemplative orders so that the nuns cannot look out into the world. The walls in the monastery are unpainted.
Both sit at a rustic wooden table. On one side is a high, majestic, dignified, yet austere armchair, which reflects the best expression of Spanish culture. It is a little uncomfortable. In this chair sits Saint Francis Borja, superior of the Jesuits, who influenced the entire Spanish clergy and nobility.
In front of him, in an armless chair, sits Saint Teresa of Jesus. Her face makes evident her veneration for this powerful Jesuit, her spiritual superior. The two saints converse.
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A supernatural light permeates the room. Both experience a moment of remarkable consolation. Saint Francis understands the state of the great saint’s soul. Saint Therese feels understood, discovering aspects of her own soul that she had not yet perceived, thanks to the presence of Saint Francis Borja. This discovery makes her happy. The conversation is holy. They talk about the assaults of Protestantism, the blasphemies, consecrated hosts trod underfoot, broken images of Our Lady, and the denial of papal infallibility. Both are using the occasion to warm up their spirits to fight for Holy Mother Church during the Counter-Reformation.
Outside the convent, a storm rages, lightning flashes and thunder booms. The scene symbolizes the meeting of these two brilliant souls. They sense the presence of God’s power and see the scene as an image of what is happening inside their souls.
An Arid Conversation
We can also imagine another completely different conversation between the saints. It reflects aridity and difficulties.
The two talk, moving from one topic to another. They do not find a topic to unite them. There is no supernatural light. Saint Francis doesn’t understand Saint Teresa’s mysterious mystical elaborations. She wants to shorten their exchange. Both of them suffer from aridity.
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Outside the convent, this scene is of a silent, cold drizzle that reflects the tedium that afflicts the two saints. Both offer prayers, asking for aid in the exchange. Both were entirely faithful to grace and offered up this sacrifice so that they could sanctify themselves with this arid conversation. Despite the lack of a supernatural light surrounding them, they know that Our Lord Jesus Christ was in their midst, but in a different form.
We must be prepared for both great joy and aridity, which are all part of what happens in conversation.
A Wide Variety of Options
Conversations can be light-hearted and deal with topics that are entirely accessible to everyone, such as how to organize a dinner or a children’s outing. In view of the promise of Our Lord Jesus Christ, any kind of conversation brings His presence among us—any kind.
Conversations can instruct, inform and clarify. They give us pleasure when the interlocutors express themselves with good sense, logic, and vocabulary appropriate to the elegance of the occasion. We should develop a vocabulary to help us express a certain refinement in meaning.
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Such improvements in the expression of elegance and clarity are permanent preparations for our conversations. All these measures turn them into valuable opportunities to spread the Faith.
Planning the Subject
When we get together, what should be the themes of the conversation? If there is a desire to gather friends together in the name of Our Lord, He will be in our midst and will enlighten us to find and choose a topic—and He does. He fulfills His promise.
The book Return to Order by John Horvat offers plenty of conversation topics: economics, lifestyle, justice, architecture and women’s fashion. Many topics in Return to Order are oriented toward the glory of Holy Mother Church. We can take these very rich suggestions and develop them in our conversations.
Conversation also has its uses and risks, just like any apostolate.
We must avoid the risk of displeasing someone by letting an ill-advised argument slip in, provoking a fight. Arguments prevent conversations from achieving the union of souls that we desire. We must resort to vigilance and prayer to avoid this risk.
The “Rules” of Good Conversation
How can you conduct a conversation to make it worthwhile? How do you make those present experience the joy that strengthens mutual respect and friendship? Are there rules for a good conversation?
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There are countless rules, tips and warnings. Many books and treatises on the “art of conversation” were written, especially after the sixteenth century. They offer advice on choosing topics, using gestures to give force to your words, witty sayings, voice modulation, etc. They were written by clerics.
The Holy Church is a mother. She knows that conversation is our most common activity, and therefore, the Church has in mind its sanctification. So, these rules have been written, and there is no harm in reading them. However, I don’t think it is necessary to read these treatises to improve our conversations because we already know a lot about how to lead a good conversation.
As it happens, the contacts among us in the TFP have already shaped us to be attuned to the themes and the style of conversation according to the spirit of the Counter-Revolution. TFP founder Dr. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira taught us this style. In our contacts among ourselves, we’ve already learned a lot and developed a manner of speaking. We’ve already avoided the most serious mistakes.
We sense the most important rules in our conversations, maybe without having them explicit in our minds. We palpably sense this because, in the course of our relationships with each other as TFP friends and supporters, we have learned much through conversations rather than lectures. Conversation plays a role much more important.
The Desire to Do Good
One essential rule in conversation is that we should desire to do good to others. This is the starting point. We must seek to elevate the horizons of those in the conversation. We need to ask Our Lady to help us bring interesting, pleasant and pleasing topics to the exchange. We should also seek to highlight the most excellent aspects of interesting topics. This is what Prof. Plinio used to do when bringing up any kind of subject in conversation. It is difficult but very important for success.
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We must know how to listen. Many monopolize conversation, thinking I want to speak, I have ideas, I read a book, I have to communicate this, I, I, I.
We must listen. If we don’t listen, there is no conversation. It becomes a speech, and the conversation dies off. Everyone must know how to listen, which means that we must allow ourselves to be interrupted.
We must always try to express ourselves in a pleasant way, choosing the right words. One way to cultivate a pleasant manner of expression is to develop the topics we like best. If I like history or politics, I will try to lead the conversation into these subjects because I must give the impression that I have a passion and have much to say about it.
Appealing to the Supernatural
We must especially appeal to the supernatural in our conversations. Without these precautions, it is difficult to have an agreeable conversation, and we risk being wearisome to those listening to us.
A person who doesn’t have the gift of interesting conversation may become discouraged, saying, “I never had the gift of interesting conversation throughout my life. Nobody pays attention to me. I am not even happy with the arguments I bring up.”
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However, if he desires to do an apostolate, he will have recourse to heaven. Prof. Plinio recommended this prayer to Our Lady: “My Mother, in this gathering, I see someone isolated at a corner of the room. No one talks to him (or to her). Here I am, and I’m not an interesting person. But you don’t have anyone else to talk to this person at the moment. I have asked the Holy Spirit, your Divine Spouse, to give me the light to attract that soul to the Counter-Revolution. So I will have confidence. I will take action and talk to this person.”
The desire to do spiritual good is important in this case. I’m not capable, but God will help me. There is no one else to help Him. This disposition is very Catholic since it calls upon God to engage in the conversation if such a prayer is made.
Starting Points
To engage in a good conversation, we need to put ourselves in the mood of someone who has a lot to say. We cannot start the conversation by complaining, “Well, I don’t know too much about it, and I don’t like this topic.” Never say this. We must put ourselves in the mood of someone who has lots to say.
What is the starting point for conversations? We must be alert at every moment of the day for topics of conversation. We must consider this part of our spiritual life and apostolate.
Our task does not consist of the great sacrifices and fasts that saints like the Cure of Ars endured. Our sacrifice is to calmly pay attention to what goes on around us. We must note and even write down what we see and hear from other persons, the news commentaries and events. We should try to keep these things in our memory. We should accumulate arguments and topics to help us exchange ideas. If we do this, we will have a lot to say.
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Such observations naturally multiply, and we feel the urge to communicate them to others. If we do this, we will have an overabundance of topics for good conversations.
Those who observe a lot also want to hear about the observations of others. We can then add them to our collection of observations. This mutual communication of observations also brings with it an appetite to listen. When we listen, we cultivate an indispensable element that makes conversation enjoyable.
Non-Verbal Elements of Conversation
Conversation is not only words. It sometimes starts with a handshake, a first glance between the parties or the first timbre of the voice that sets the tone. All these things enrich the conversation.
Dr. Plinio called this sense of perceiving the atmosphere of exchange the imponderables of a conversation. Imponderable means “incapable of being weighed or evaluated with exactness.” It is something we sense without strict definition.
From the first contact, souls have a subtle perception of each other’s way of being that can trigger sympathy, fear or lack of interest. This perception is an imponderable element that comes from the intensity of each person’s soul. Everyone has a different way of being present and influencing others.
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We sense this in a conversation. Based on these imponderables, we can adapt our arguments and sentences to what we first felt. We all have this perception of other people’s souls, although we might find it hard to make it explicit.
Thus, the simplest of people, having enthusiasm for the subject, persuades more by the imponderables of his passion than the most eloquent of people without enthusiasm.
I had a professor who knew his subject matter very well. He had many awards and titles but did not know how to transmit information. For him, the students did not exist. He simply unloaded what he had to say. We did not learn. We learned with the textbook and didn’t pay attention to him. His classes were almost useless.
An Essential Element: Passion
Saint Julian Eymard lived in the nineteenth century. He said, “We must do everything in life with passion.” This was his principle. “Otherwise, our actions will not succeed.”
Thus, attitudes, expressions, words and appearances are all part of the art of conversation. Sometimes, a person’s tone of voice and countenance can be more eloquent than words.
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However, remember, enthusiasm always persuades—always. He who believes what he says convinces even if his expression is not perfect. We feel what he says is true. Enthusiasm is compelling.
Both the content and way of expressing arguments are important. A person’s impact upon another comes largely from how the topic is explained. A simple explanation has a different effect from a professorial tone. The latter says, “I am here to teach, not to talk or exchange.” Such an attitude marks the failure of a conversation.
For example, a person who describes a weekend outing cannot say, “We woke up at 5:00 a.m., had a quick breakfast, took the car at 6:15 a.m., stopped at the gas station, arrived there three hours later, unloaded the car, ate sandwiches in a hut at 1:15 p.m.,” etc.
He gave a picture of the weekend, but it is a schedule, not a conversation.
Conversation as an Art
No matter how complete such a report is, it is unacceptable because it lacks social warmth. It’s a cold report. Conversation cannot be a mere chronicle, report or lesson, although it must contain something of each.
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That is why it is an art that must be learned and trained. To keep a conversation alive, we have to observe the reactions of people around us constantly. Are they following the narration? Are they enjoying it? Do I need to make the necessary adaptations and clarifications?
A good interlocutor normally has the gift of communication. It is a gift, but also a skill that needs constant training. This gift is enhanced by taking an interest in those engaged in the conversation. If we are full of interest for their souls, we will feel the need of helping them. We will find the way because Our Lord will be in our midst as He promises.
The Feminine Role
In society, the presence of women makes conversation more pleasant. Men often—but not always—contribute with ideas that shape the main topic. However, the presence of women brings elegance to the conversation and imposes prudence. It enriches the conversation because it is proper for women’s natures to notice details. In turn, the details inspire an interest in the conversation because they oblige the speaker to define several particular features that otherwise would be forgotten. A woman gracefully contributes, refining how opinions are presented and expressed. It has always been recognized that conversation can only reach its highest degree of perfection in a society in which women also participate. They contribute with their delicate nature. Balance, an indispensable element of excellent conversation, requires the lady’s contribution.
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The history of our civilization tells us that one aspect of the feminine way of being that has contributed to giving conversations a lot of sparkle is the fact that they know how to make the spirit of conversation shine. It’s a gift. They know how to shake off torpor and often lift the participants out of their slumber. When the conversation dies away, the ladies say something as a question that may revive the conversation.
In the good old days of organic societies, they knew how to light ovens and stoves in the kitchen and prepare delicious dishes. Soon after, coming out of the kitchen, they knew how to set spirits on fire during the conversation at the table.
It might be impossible to include all these points in every conversation. Use as many as possible. But never forget to ask Our Lord and Our Lady to bless the conversation with their presence and inspiration.